Letās move the battlefield out of Ukraine and into Russia then.
Why would Ukraine want to take Russian land?
Not necessarily take, but a demilitarized zone might make sense, and that has to be put somewhere.
Like prevent troops amassing in āpeaceful exerciseā so they cannot surprise invade again.
Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to exchange Belgorod for NATO membership.
Presumably parts of Russia is of strategic importance, being where they come.
Not all battles are about taking land.Sure, but implying Ukraine would want to attack its neighbouring country, to take land for any reasons seems strange. Thatās more like what Russia would do.
Since Ukraine isnāt a real country, it canāt invade another country. That would be a warcrimes.
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But remember, itās the rest of the world thatās warmongering! Also up is down!
āThe rest of the worldā
time to remind people that zelensky made having peace negotiations with putin ILLEGAL
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has formally ruled out talks with Russia after it illegally declared four Ukrainian regions to be part of Russia.
Zelenskyās decree released Tuesday declares that holding negotiations with Russian President Vladimir Putin has become impossible after his decision to annex four regions of Ukraine. The decree also approves the decision of Ukraineās National Security and Defense Council to strengthen Ukrainian defenses and seek more weapons from the countryās Western allies in response to Moscowās move.
Ah so āhas become impossibleā is now āhas been made illegalā. Tankie text comprehension, I presume.
time to remind people that zelensky made having peace negotiations with putin ILLEGAL
Can you quote the part of the article which made you think so? I donāt see the article saying what you claim it says.
A reminder from the KidsPost team: Our stories are geared to 7- to 13-year-olds.Itās alright if you are younger than that. Otherwise, I think all you achieved is reminding people how dishonest and untrustworthy lemmygrad users can be. You would have helped your cause more had you not made that comment.
This is the end of this thread. Thereās no comeback to this.
āRussiaās upper house of parliament on Tuesday voted to support the treaties that make the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine part of Russia.ā
ŠŠµŃŠ¶ŠµŠ»Šø ŃŠ°Šŗ ŃŃŃŠ“Š½Š¾ ŠæŠ¾Š½ŃŃŃ ŃŃŠµŠ½ŠøŠµ, ŃŠ¾Š²Š°ŃŠøŃ?
Nobody actually has any argument against this except ad hominems, which is usually fairly telling.
I guess if we ignore the two comments pointing out how the article doesnāt state what he claims Zelensky said, then yeah nobody has any arguments.
Or were you expecting arguments against a fictional statement? Because I can come back with some just as fictional counter-arguments if thatās what you were looking for.
They cannot see those comments same as vampires canāt see themselves in a mirror.
Yeah, lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml ban people for posting dissenting comments. So their users can believe no dissenting opinions exist.
Itās a bid sad they cannot spot that the article, which is very short and written for children, does not say what they claim it says, but well.
So?
ā¦
Exactly.
There really is nothing to negotiate anyway.
Ukraine does not want to give up territory.
Giving Russia anything for it is tatamount to paying a ransom. It would only encourage Russia to invade again in a decade or less.
Russia turning around and giving up the territory without gaining anything is just accepting complete defeat. They wonāt do that.
So itās a battle of attrition, both morale and economic.
Tankies gonna tank. @Krause please go fuck yourself somewhere else.
Get back under your stone on lemmygrad
Yea they are.
Come on, not even zelensky had any hope they would accept this peace plan. Theyāre basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied. The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall, the Russians have no reason at all to do this.
Pretty crumbly and porous brick wall, there. And they apparently neglected to build it around Sevastopol.
War is normally a slow process. In historical terms Ukraine is making good progressā¦ it is mostly fiction where wars are one in a couple days.
Except Israel.
There have been a lot of exceptions. However the majority of wars are longer as if you donāt think you can win surrender terms are generally better than death.
Sure, if you fight in the middle of the desert with little cover and no mud, progress is fast once you cut through the defensive lines. Vs fighting in mud and forests.
Hmm, letās just see what an actual war historian has to say about that https://www.agonmag.com/p/vlahos-ukraine-shares-same-fate-as
Western people are funny to say the least, i dont know why, if it has something to do if the fact u guys always lived in such a privileged position that u can live in a fantasy world.
Try to be pragmatic. I never said it had to be quick, I never said this is unwinnable right now, I just said that makes no sense for the Russians to accept this terms right now, and Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this. Or were u expecting putin to wake up this morning feeling bad for what he have done and just move his troops out of Ukraine?
They didnāt have any hope because Putin is a warmonger. Any āpeace planā that Russia would find acceptable would just delay the inevitable and give Russia time to build back up, theyāve already shown their cards. Russia needs to give up on its territorial aspirations and give back what itās stolen. Russia couldāve held onto Crimea even had it just not invaded Ukraine, the rest of the world had basically turned a blind eye to it (it wasnāt right, but that was the reality), instead they get to watch their military turn to dust, just like Putin will be doing within a decade.
So youāre saying Crimea is not part of Ukraine?
Iām not saying that all, but facts on the ground were that, 2014ā2022, Russia had control of Crimea and nobody was going to do anything about that for fear of getting into conflict with Russia. That Crimea even āpassedā into Russian hands without much of a fight from the international community is probably what emboldened Putin to go after the rest of Ukraine. What Iām saying is that had he stuck to just that sort of low-level āpiecemealā approach to carving out sections of Ukraine, like what was do e with Crimea, he wouldnāt have gotten nearly the amount of international backlash that he got.
Is Crimea part of Ukraine? Yes, but when it comes to international borders, facts on the ground are what matter in the long-run. Had Putin bided his time, eventually it wouldāve just been accepted as fact. Nobody else wouldāve ever cared enough to start a war over it. With Putin going for all-out-war though, heās revealed Russiaās military weakness and facts on the ground have become mutable again, giving us the chance that weāll hopefully see Crimea come back into Ukraine.
Iām not judging who is or who isnāt a warmonger or whatever, letās just be pragmatic, it makes no sense at all for Russia to accept those terms. Were u expecting the Russian Govt. to suddenly wake up one morning feeling bad for what theyāve done and just move the troops out of Ukraine, including Crimea whoās under Russian control for over a decade now, and say āsorry, my badā? This 10 point plan they āproposedā was only made so western media can say theyāre trying to stop the war, which they arenāt. And again, Iām not saying they have to stop the war, Iām just analyzing things objectively.
Iām saying Putin can stop this war right now by going home. This is all Putinsā fault supported by oligarchs. It makes complete sense for putin to accept these terms, because he will eventually be forced to.
There are no oligarchs in Russia.
Words have meanings. An oligarch is someone who has political power through wealth.
Russia is an autocracy, and Putin allows people to be rich, so long as they donāt try to translate that into political power.
America has oligarchs, Russia just has rich people that contribute to an autocracy.
ā¦ Iām honestly not sure which is more evil as a political system.
I would say what is in the U.S. because there are more thorns that have to be removed from the rose.
What makes you believe we will eventually be forced? Do you still think our sanctions will make Russia collapse?
When the bombs are on his doorstep caused by his own ignorance.
So youāre cheering for WW3?
The counteroffensive is moving forward slowly because the Russians put a ton of mines and trenches in the way. Plus they committed their best troops to stopping it. Still Ukraine is slowly moving forward in the south.
I wouldnāt want to be there right now on either side. But basically the Ukrainians are winning because their artillery is better. Once Ukraine moves their artillery within range of the highway along the Sea of Azov, the troops protecting Crimea will have their supplies threatened. This is the general plan and theyāre getting closer.
I never said this in unwinnable, but donāt make any sense to propose a peace plan to Russia right now demanding them to return all the land they occupied. Ukrainians are not dumb, they know this, this peace āproposalā is just a piece of propaganda to western media to say they are trying to start peace talks with Russia or some shit. The Russian ministry answered this out of anger but heās not wrong, the Ukraine is only getting their territory back if they can put a huge pressure on Russians, possibly only if they can manage to make Russia fear to be attacked on their own territory. And even if this happens we have to trust Russians wonāt nuke Ukraine to protect their own territory.
Up until about a week ago, this talking point was still current, but itās time for a refresh.
Theyāre making slow progress constantly but the front lines are barely moving. Thereās obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that, but thereās still a long way to go, and theyāre both taking heavy casualties every single day.
Thereās obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that
Thatās the opposite of Russiaās defensive doctrine, which would only be exacerbated further by the ability to deploy reserves where necessary. It could be a different story if Ukraine wasnāt having to commit their exploitation forces just to try to reach the first lines of defense; even if they break through tomorrow they wonāt really have the manpower to do anything with it.
The only actual progress being made is in destroying the equipment NATO managed to cobble together and losing trained manpower. Even if a miracle happened and Ukraine managed to make some breakthrough, what exactly is it going to be consolidated with given that they spent past three and a half months beating their head against a wall. Theyāve already thrown in all the reserve brigades that were originally meant to come in and consolidate the gains now.
The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall
What a bunch of Putin propagandistic nonsense.
Either Putin propagandists have now infiltrated mainstream liberal media or you have no clue regarding the state of the war, Iām going to go with the latter here
holy shit stop invading and leave? OUTRAGEOUS! the nerve of zelensky to ask for what is Ukraineās! I think you should go join the trenches to show how mad you are!
Zelensky knowing that there wasnāt a hope in hell of Russians accepting this is false? You know it, I know it, we all know it. Itās just politics. Of course Zelensky has to offer something, even if he knows they wonāt bite.
The Russians have to claw something out of this debacle to sue for peace. And I hope the Ukrainians give them nothing, and take back the Crimea while theyāre at it.
No, see when he says āa fairer distribution of global benefitsā that needs to start with distributing ukrainian benefits to russian oligarchs obviously!
Why do you want to force the people of Crimea and the Donbas to be subjected to a government that they despise? Why donāt those people have any right to self determination?
they can move to the shithole that is russia if they want to live under a shit government
You want huge populations to be forcibly removed? That sounds like genocide
you mean like the Uyghurs? genocide is really fucked, what are you doing about the Uyghurs?
edit: no-one is forcing russian simps in Crimea to move anywhere you absolute nonce, they can live free under ukraine or go suck balls in russia if thats what they want
They were getting bombed and murdered by the ukrainian military since 2014. Thats not what I call āliving freeā
Theyāre basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied.
Yes.
Bad bot.
bots are at least logical
I mean, if Putin doesnāt want to die, he can always gobtje fuck home. I mean he can still suck a bag of dicks and then choke on them.
Somehow I doubt that Russia will accept the outcome of the battlefield.
Thatās because you donāt understand what the outcome on the battlefield will be, but youāll see soon enough.
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Iām not saying itās not going to happen but Russia would have to attack NATO first.
No one wants to attack a nuclear power if they donāt have to.
NATO directly fighting Russian troops in Ukraine would be a big deal and quite unlikely already if it somehow got to that.
Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine but they need to kick out Putin out of Russia themselves.
Why
Itās anti-Democratic to interfere in the politics of other countries.
And yes, the US has done it a lot, and tries to keep it hushed up because itās extremely wrong and unpopular behavior.
First, why would NATO risk escalation and bother losing troops when they can get Ukraine to do all the actual fighting?
it would only be forthcoming.
How about DC?
Whataboutism
How is that whataboutism? Do you even know what that means or are you just a liberals parrot?
Alsoā¦
This guy gets called on it enough to have a cartoon but not enough to reconsider his words.
What did I say
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We want housing in the EU, not fucking explosives.
But if they blow up every house, thereāll plenty of housing to be built later on by EU companies. Thatās basically the same thing, right? Thatās what the citizens want, right?
If only political leader would still take their sword and fight each other on the battlefield instead of letting the armies fight for those old geezers.
Even back in those days, the leaders rarely put themselves in any danger
I would love to see Putin try to lift a sword against Zelensky
dym the ex-KGB and military guy vs the literal comedian that played piano with his dick on TV? Do you really think Zelensky would win this?
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āOur future is being shaped by a struggle, a struggle between the global majority in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits and civilized diversity and between the few who wield neocolonial methods of subjugation in order to maintain their domination which is slipping through their hands,ā he said.
I mean, heās not factually wrong, just framing it in reverse. Russia is indeed trying to colonize Ukraine to maintain their dominion which is slipping through their hands. Itās just not using neocolonial methods but good old armed conquest.
And the people in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits arenāt the people heās thinking of. I mean itās also clearly not the US, but ātaking what Ukraine has and giving it to Russian Oligarchsā is also not a fairer distribution.
You know what they say about the right: every accusation is a confession.
These guys might be the most self-aware wolves to have ever wolfed
They also seem to be having their faces eaten by leopards, for some reason.
Russia is indeed trying to colonize Ukraine to maintain their dominion
Funny. Because in reality itās what US and they puppets do. Russia is simply trying to save itself from NATO expansion in the east and US imperialism.
Whatās the difference between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs?
Even IF ukrainian oligarchs were a problemā¦
Ukrainian oligarchs can get at ukrainian money without waging a war of aggression that causes nearly 30thousand civilian casualties.
As of right now? Armed military conquest and homophobic conspiracy theories.
a view taking hold among Ukraineās allies that the war is likely to go on for years
Thatās been obvious since 2014, and since the full invasion of last year.
Alright Lavrov, grab a gun and get moving.
If any people deciding to go to wars had to really put their asses on the front lines the world would definitely be a peaceful place.
But as always, in both sides, only the poor working class is dying on the front line.
Those of all castes are fighting on the Ukrainian side.
Yes, of course, the working class in old western tanks and the rich and the politicians in their unicornsā¦
russia is running out of the poor though, weird who would have thought using human wave tactics would decimate a populationā¦
Oh hey, remind us what this āpeace planā is exactly?
Caps on Russian oil price, restoration of original Ukraine borders, prosecution of Russian āwar criminalsā
Itās what youād expect from a country thatās completely winning the war and not stuck in a stalemate while losing support
Caps on Russian oil price
Remember when people still believed this would work? lol
is it really a stalemate though? Russia is just letting Ukraine destroy itself basicallyā¦
Yeah, itās what youād expect from a country thatās winning the war, and Ukraine is not winning the war while rapidly losing support as pretty much all western media admits now. A few recent examples for you:
- https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/the-hard-reality-ukraines-last-gasp-offensive-has-failed/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/western-criticism-blame-ukraine-failing-counter-offensive/
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-21/ukraine-zelenskiy-under-pressure-as-allies-priorities-shift
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-09-24/ukraine-offensive-against-russia-is-too-slow-for-us-uk-and-eu
I was pointing out this obvious reality to some people on reddit a few weeks ago and I was called names. Here is how I came on this conclusion: Ukrainians were saying that whoever wins the battle of Bakhmut, will win the war. Then they proceeded to lose said battle and they were announcing to the enemy āHere we go, were coming, we are going to attack at this region anytime soon, please give weapons!ā And everyone was like, āHow dare you say that they are losingā. Itās like as if everyone forgot how to think for their own
Itās been pretty surreal to watch this unfold over the past year and a half. Every single prediction the west made about the direction of the war was proven to be completely wrong. Russian economy did not collapse, Russian military isnāt falling apart, Russia isnāt running out of weapons. Western weapons arenāt game changers, stingers, HIMARS, tanks, and missiles that the west sent were all proven to be useless in changing the direction of the war.
Yet, as we see in this thread, plenty of people in the west are refusing to do any reflection on the fact that the narrative weāre being sold is demonstrably false. They just latch on to whatever new hopium story western media puts out and just keep doubling down.
I understand that in every war there is propaganda on both sides in order to keep the morale high for the ones fighting. However there seems to be the case that the ones that make policy and push the propaganda fall victims of it and are being deluded into bad strategic decisions.
Right, we have a very narrow window of accepted viewpoints right now, and anybody who voices points that that donāt fit with the narrative ends up being sidelined. This creates an echo chamber where people just repeat the same talking points to each other even if they donāt agree with them because saying anything contrary would be career ending. A great example of this is how people like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer are now only found on substack and random youtube channels. Itās impossible to make sound decisions without honest debate and without accepting facts as they actually are as opposed to as you want them to be.
Itās deeply ironic that the west prides itself on diversity of opinions that are considered. This is supposed to be one of the core strengths of the western system compared to āauthoritarianā regimes like China. The reality turns out to be quite different.
And then we go ahead and criticize the Chinese for being authoritarian. People have not yet realized that democracy has diminished and that their so called rights are an illusion. So much for the west spreading āfreedom and democracyā
I just heard Tilly on the talking heads say that if Ukraine doesnāt prevail then there will be direct conflict between USA and Russia.
These are the people running the largest government/military in the world and Iām pretty damn sure all those Ukraine flags would disappear from peoples mailboxes when the bombs start falling in their back yards and their grandchildren are sent to die for a war no one can explain why we are in.
These people are dangerously unhinged and theyāve brought us to the brink of a nuclear holocaust. The fact that so many people in the west continue to cheer this on is frankly disturbing.
Basically unconditional surrender of Russia.
Honestly Itās funny when you mention to libs that Ukraine itself has made law which forbids itself from negotiating with Russia. But russia is the unreasonable one?
And the goal of regime change in russia is particularly funny, like not even fully leaving ukraine are they satisfied with this. So the idea that peace can be obtained is for russia to leave, yet the ukranians themselves donāt even want this. Delusional people who are miserably failing this war.
(P.S. For you chuds and libs who are banned from lemmygrad, I cannot see your message, Real shame, and I cannot be bothered logging on to your alt-right platforms to engage with these illuminating comments).
The battlefield isnāt even being faught on the Ukrainian side using the most cutting edge of Western technology and you want to keep fighting? Holy shit.
I would love to see that guy getting drafted and thrown into the battlefield heās bragging about.
Iād like to see that old fascist fucker on the front lines, to join the conscripts heās sending to their deaths.
I fucking hate this guyās guts. I know thatās why heās so good at his job, but I justā¦ ugh. Whenever I see his stupid face, itās like Iām getting preliminarily angry.
Iām trying to remember what language it is, it might be German or Japanese, which has a word which translates āa face badly in need of a fist.ā Thatās this guy.
German, Backpfeifengesicht. I also like āFresse wieān Lexikon: Aufschlagen, zuschlagen, nachschlagen.ā
And thatās why I will never learn Germanā¦
Itās okay, weāre aware itās hard. :-/ The compound words arenāt even the worst part, actuallyāarticles are the real killers. Those, and the fact that the grammatically correct word order changes depending on what kind of idea youāre trying to get across. Ugh.
On the other hand, English is its own can of worms. If I hadnāt learned English as my first foreign language, Iād have pulled my hair out, mostly because of the spelling.
English is a difficult language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.
Heās better spoken than any USA politician these days
Donāt you do my boy Pete like that
Trumps buddy is so brave š¤£
