Hey everyone, I’m honestly really liking Lemmy so far. Maybe that’s because it feels so much like browsing reddit 10 years ago and I think it’s safe to say many of us have migrated from the blackout. I’d been a Reddit user since 2010 so I’ve witnessed the slow decline over the years but popping here has really driven home how corporate it started to feel–less like a genuine hub of community and more like a manufactured product with low effort content and some genuine discussion/input peppered throughout.
That said, does anyone feel the idea of a federated platform might be confusing to some less network-savvy users? There’s other successful multi-server platforms like Discord but somehow for me the idea of a ‘chatroom’ versus something more like a forum/board seems like it would make more sense to a less informed user. I could see hearing that posts are aggregating from other sites or being cross-visible confusing to individuals who understand web usage as, ‘visit site–post to site–view content on site’.
Does that make sense? lol Anyways, loving the site so far–hope to see it grow!
IMO, everybody tries to explain what fediverse is, instances are, how they work, so on, and so forth. That’s what is pushing people away. Just point them to one place. Lemmy.world seems to have the least friction to signup (no approval, only email confirmation), while also hosting a lot of communities. Just tell people to signup on lemmy.world, and search for whatever communities they want to join, and subscribe to the one with most subscribers. That should be enough. No need to ‘educate’ them on how fediverse works.
I wish we could just stop making a big deal out of the federation, other than choosing an initial home and having perceived duplicate groups it has more or less no impact to the front end users.
It’s a backend thing and we need to bury it more in the UI so people don’t feel it.
Exactly. Make it infrastructure that’s hidden away from the front end. Find some way to wrap up duplicate groups into larger categories or something, and figure out a way to migrate accounts if your home instance tanks. That would cover all my concerns.
Each community on each instance should have at least one required tag when created. There should be a list of tags available. If you make a meme community, you use the meme tag, and it lumps your community in with every other one that has the meme tag, then you can subscribe to a tag and it shows you all posts from all communities in that tag. There should then be a way to hide posts from certain communities within that tag if they start getting stupid. Not sure how viable this is though.
There’s a huge stigma around it. A lot of friction with mastodon. I think they’re working toward meta-communities.
I do have worries about people signing up to smaller nodes and losing all their posts/subs/data when a node shuts down. It would be kinda cool if we had the ability to merge nodes or have a true decentralized login.
I’m not really up on the intricacies of the federation philosophy, but why isn’t it just distributed p2p style?
So there would be 1 forward facing thing that you interact with, but all of the backend functions would be spread across all the volunteer servers/instances. Like torrent seeding.
Maybe that’s not even feasible, but I’ve been wondering since I joined.
I read this message this morning, and pondered this for quite some time. It’s definitely not impossible, but there’s a college thesis worth of conidiations and difficult problems to address. There’s probably already a number of products that would be a better fit than federation.
The torrent system as it is, is ill fit, it’s got the distribute things and protect them with hashes in spades, but unlike forums it doesn’t need to deliver you data in a timely fashion. If that copy of Scooby Do and the Reluctant Werewolf takes a couple of days for someone to come online and have you a few k of content, it’s no big deal. That said, it IS possible to watch really popular videos over BT.
I think the deepest problem is trying to keep the data online. You obvious can’t have a multi-terabyte copy of forums on everyone’s box, people are going to need to split and choose who gets what but they you have to figure out a way to keep everything everywhere online. You can’t just force people to host everything or you’ll end up with unexpected jailbait hosting.
You’d have to sit down for a long time and draw up a spec to even define what your problems are, you’d have to figure out things like, how much of the data do you expect to be available all the time, how many copies do you seed around, how you’d manage to keep people seeding it.
Policing and moderation also becomes a sore subject. Most of the P2P stuff is resilient against removing items by deisgn, it’s immutable once launched. For things like edits, you could do versioning systems, but like if someone was doxxed or someone posted nudes of their ex, there’s no way to remove the old versions.
Authentication and identification would be a nightmare. you’d probably need to digitally sign everything and keep your keys in a chain of custody, signing each new key with the old one.
it’s an awesome thought exercise though.
Wow, thanks for such a detailed reply. I was sitting here thinking something like “just take what the server does and uh… distribute it”, but it’s clearly not trivial.
One login for the entire fediverse would make sense.
kinddda. you’d still need to do something smart because it needs to be decentralized. IRC handled it with registered nicknames, i’d think we could field something with some form of federated authentication provider, split the data between a few nodes.
Agreed! Then it could be really like email! You create an account on an “account server”, we’ll call it, and then you can use that account to log into “community servers”. Instances wouldn’t need to federate content with each other, since users could just go to other instances with their account.
@drubbis Doesn’t make sense in my opinion. If you turn off federation it’s basically just another Reddit
I feel like the focus on explaining federation and the fediverse can be overwhelming and confusing for new mainstream users.
Instead of focusing on the technical details, it might be more helpful to simply direct them to a few major servers (instances) like lemmy.world, beehaw.org, and lemmy.ml and tell them to make an account (or lurk) and explore. The advanced features, namely being able to subscribe to communities in other instances, should be eased into it later.
That is something I think kbin.social has done a better job of. Yes, there are other instances of kbin, but new users are told start with that one and slowly branch out from there.
And for those interested in seeing lemmy’s growth, this page is amazing: https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list
“The advanced features, namely being able to subscribe to communities in other instances, should be eased into it later”
I understand this and I would at first agree, but subscribing to communities is basically the most important thing and it’s frustrating/deterrent to learn that it’s on other websites and you can’t directly subscribe just like you can on other websites like you might on Reddit or Facebook or any other aggregator
Federation should not be an issue for users, I think we could make the front-end hide most of the complexity that it brings. There are only a few things that are harder now:
- discovering communities outside your own instance (this is now mostly done through a website that lists communities)
- logging in when you receive a link to a post on another instance (you have to go to your own instance, login there, and search for the post again)
- creating a community on another instance (this requires an account on the other instance to create the community, after that they can add you as a mod)
One of the things that could be improved is changing the login page to add least add something about Federation, so users won’t try to log in on another instance with the credentials of their home instance.
Your second bullet point is the one I have wanted fixed badly as soon as I started using lemmy. I want there to be a small button at the top of posts that takes me to that same post but through the server where my account is. Idk how that would work though. Maybe a browser addon that remembers where my accounts live? I wish I had the knowledge to make that sort of thing.
Sorry I deleted and reposted this comment, having an issue I’m trying to figure out.
This would require a browser extension or a central redirection server (similar to how single sign on is implemented between multiple URLs). The central server approach won’t really fit well with the decentralized concept, although that server only needs to know your Lemmy instance and will only redirect users.
A browser extension could easily inject some kind of button in the page, and it would be easy enough for the browser extension to know your own Lemmy instance. I’m not sure if there is an easy URL to a specific post on a certain instance though, for example this post is https://feddit.nl/post/39577 for me and does not contain any information that this post is actually on !lemmyworld@lemmy.world. Those post URLs work fine if your home instance is aware about the post, but won’t work if nobody has subscribed to that community.
Why a browser addon? My first approach would be to have the client do the job. Link to the page via the current instance, and ask the server to fetch it if it doesn’t exist.
This is about a user browsing on another Lemmy instance. For example, a user from lemmy.world receives a link on a chat app to a post on beehaw.org. Now he wants to reply to that post, to do so the user has to go to the same post on their home instance. Beehaw.org has no idea that the user has an account on lemmy.world, so they can’t just redirect the user. It is very difficult for Lemmy instances to share this data, as browsers have built in protections to prevent websites from sharing common identifiers (those were used to track people over multiple websites).
A menu could be added where the user can select their instance, but that would still require Beehaw.org to know about the existence of the user’s home instance. This could still give issues with smaller instances, that are not well federated with other instances.
The fragmentation of communities needs to be addressed. The fact is that most people just want to consume content. There needs to be a client-side solution that helps less tech-savvy users to more easily consume content from similar communities.
reddit has fragmentation as well. I think over time the more popular ones will win out and less popular will sorta wither away. Gaming is a good example. Reddit has games, gaming, pcgaming,pcmasterrace, patientgamers, etc…
Seeing a similar rush to land grab here as well. Basically it’ll sort itself out is my point and probably isn’t much different from early days of reddit or hell even modern day reddit.
As this instance just got defederated from beehaw.org, I would definitely say so since that’s a massive pain, creating multiple accounts for one service just because some other members posted spam is really annoying.
Why can I still see Beehaw posts though?
You can see their content, but they wont see anything you contribute to it. I just unsubscribed from any beehaw communities so I stop seeing them.
Wow, I didn’t know defederation was a thing until reading the comments in this post. In that case, I agree with the OP that not leading with federation when promoting Lemmy is probably the best.
I’ve been thinking about setting up my communities based on what I used to follow on Reddit but honestly, I get about 30 seconds to browse at a time and it’s too much of a mental hurdle to be like ok…I need to go to what site was it? And I need to keep going back to my Reddit subreddit list, then search for every subreddit on [whatever that site was] then go to the app and paste some URL in… All of this is a pain in the arse on mobile and if it’s not the sort of thing I can do in a minute or two then it’s not going to get done.
Maybe someone will write a service that lets you enter your Reddit username and it just auto-searches for the closest matching community for each subreddit you are subscribed to and auto-adds them to your Lemmy account
Can’t you just log in to your Lemmy instance and search the communities by clicking the communities button? You just need to look at “all” instead of “local” communities.
As a new user, what does this mean?
I already signed into an instance and created a user name and password? Do I need to join a unique instance for every community I join? Does everyone just use password managers or something like that?
No, that’s what they’re saying. Don’t do that. Click on the magnifying glass in the top menu, and make sure that the selector that offers [Subscribed, Local, or All], choose All. That’ll include communities on other instances that this instance knows about.
It will absolutely.
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The average non-tech savvy person will be extremely confused about how federated services operate. You say “join lemmy’, and they say, 'ok, what’s the site?” and then you need to explain, well, you need to pick one of about four thousand instances, and then only go there when you want to sign in. Now they’re already confused. That can then be explained 'It’s like e-mail, lots of different servers to get email, but they all work together." But this doesn’t hit as well because a website is not e-mail, and so interconnected websites are not immediately intuitive. And as soon as you start going into any level of technical details, the average person just tunes out and decides “I don’t want to deal with this crap.”
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If they pick an instance (Like Lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works) that allows free signup, they won’t have too much of a problem. If they pick one that has questions to answer and then a manual approval process that is COMPLETELY opaque, they will nope the fuck out immediately and not even bother to find other instances. Heck, I was turned off of Lemmy for several days because of this, and I’m very tech savvy, and have been doing this sort of crap forever. I signed up first at Lemmy.one, which eventually got my login active, but took 3 days. When I saw no indication of that signup working, though, I tried Beehaw. That STILL has not been activated and it’s been 5 or 6 days, and of course, there’s no indication of what’s going on during that time…it’s just a spinning wheel. Not until I went to an instance that didn’t have these ridiculous manual approvals did I begin using Lemmy. The average user is not going to bother with that.
These are going to be the biggest things that hold Lemmy back (there are also some serious usability issues with the main feed, concerning repeat posts showing for DAYS, and the autorefresh everywhere, which pushes content down constantly if you’re in the New feed).
Honestly I think people are making it more complicated than it is. Like everyone tries to compare it to email, but guess what I don’t know how email works either. And that’s fine, I don’t need to understand it. I type words, hit send, tech magic happens, and somebody reads more words. I’d say, just stop trying to explain the technical stuff behind lemmy.
I agree the servers with vetted sign-ups are a major hurdle. I tried behaw first, but I only gave it 15 minutes of waiting before trying to find a new server and now I’m here. I’d tell people to just go with specific open servers, create an account, and boom reddit replacement. The only other thing that needs explained is that some communities are on different servers, but that just means you hit “all” instead of “local” to search. Otherwise it’s basically reddit.
My opinion is people need to stop trying to explain the fediverse in detail, nobody cares, nobody needs to know, it’s just creating confusion. People don’t know how any of their services work and don’t care. Just tell them how to get setup in as painless a way as possible.
Yeah I just tell people to join lemmy.world or beehaw and look for “all” instead of local. If they’re interested, they’ll find out about instances later.
My dumbass thought ‘local’ meant popular in my geo location and ‘all’ is worldwide when I first joined 😅
Yeah I think during design, they sometimes forget and use terminology that makes sense out of a federation perspective rather than newcomers. “Local” could as well have been named “This Server” and it would be much more clear.
See Bitcoin. And Mastadon. UX dev’s tend to not be front in line when developing the next random technology alternative.
It’s funny how all these things are either ignored or even ridiculed when not understood. I didn’t understand crypto and nfts and mastodon. I ridiculed my SO about the first two but trusted he knew what he was doing and when i saw results and success I learned and got a bit involved myself just enough to add to my retirement. But it’s funny, with Lenny he won’t bother learning about it and makes fun of me for even mentioning it. He was sending me reddit links and I told him at the very least screenshot as I’m not clicking on those. I guess he’ll come around eventually but until he understands how it works he will just get annoyed anytime I mention lemmy lol!
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It’s the interface more than the technology.
I’m a new user who’s not all that familiar with federated social media. But, I think if this instance looked and acted as much like Reddit as possible, most new users would be barely aware of federation.
I’ve written it before: instances should be more closely aligned with subreddits.
Currently we basically several Reddits existing side by side, who just happen to use a similar login.
